S1E10: Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey? with Dr. John Mayer

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:00:00] Before we jump in a note on our content for this episode, this is created for adult audiences only we advise listener discretion for graphic depictions of violence and child sexual abuse. It might be a lot to take in, so if you need a breather, take a break or come back later.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:00:18] Hello and welcome to episode number 10 of the unofficial official story. I'm Dwayne the guy writing jokes for the class clown.

Jennifer Field: [00:00:25] Hey, what's up, everyone? I'm Jennifer. The fearless investigator.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:00:28] And I'm Koji, the so-called chief of the show.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:00:31] This is a podcast where we tell you the official story. We're going to take a look at the paranormal conspiracies, unexplained phenomena, cryptids and even true crime.

Jennifer Field: [00:00:41] And in this episode, we're asking the question Who killed JonBenet Ramsey. 

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:00:46] By the end we'll tell you what really maybe happened. 

Dwayne Perkins: [00:00:50] Indeed. But first we brought a guest psychologist and writer, Dr. John Mayer.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:00:55] Dr. John Mayer is a practicing clinical psychologist, author and consultant. He received his doctorate from Northwestern University Medical School. He was honored by Cambridge as one of the top 2000 scientists of the 20th century for his work in substance abuse and teens and families. I didn't know that about you, by the way, John. That was very interesting. Sorry, he consults to law enforcement, social service agencies, corporations and health care facilities around the world. He's often the expert called into headline cases involving youth. He's an acknowledged expert witness in court cases, and this is how I know him. He's an award winning author and screenwriter. Welcome, John.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:01:25] Thank you so much for having me here. It's fascinating topic.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:01:28] How's everything going with you?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:01:29] Really good. Really good. Getting cold in Chicago?

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:01:32] How did you get into your line of work

Dr. John Mayer: [00:01:34] When I got into med school? I come from a poor family and I always had to have jobs, so I was kicking around what I wanted to be at first thought I'd be a neurosurgeon, but I always thought the brain was the thing, the most important thing in our life. So I started to work in mental hospitals. And what I found was I was really good at was helping kids and especially violent kids and kids on drugs, and I got very well known for that. And in fact, program I started for criminal kids, got national notoriety, shall I say, and we got referrals of really dangerous, creepy kids from all over the country that kind of catapulted me. And then even before I. Well before I graduated from Northwestern, I had a big reputation on dealing with criminals and kids who are violent and serial killing adults and all kinds of stuff like that. So that's what that's what kind of started it off was a job,

Dwayne Perkins: [00:02:31] Right Right. I actually like the fact that you said creepy because, you know, we're so sensitive, but you can actually use that word and still be trying to help and still try to find solutions. Just don't have great empathy. But to the average person, yeah, you know, my my brother's a doctor and he before that, he worked in a mental facility just as like a security guard or something. And he said it was it was something else, you know?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:02:52] Yeah, I can't tell you, Dwyane, how many times I've told the kid, Hey, man, that's creepy. What are you doing that for you, right? You know, people are going to look at you. Weird if you do that, you know,

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:03:03] What kind of response do they give you when you tell them that

Dr. John Mayer: [00:03:05] It's real, you know, they like that. That's one of the reasons I have a great rapport with kids of all kinds. I mean, gang bangers from inner city Chicago killers, especially, you know, I just tell it like it is, and they respect that so many people in my field are, you know, tell me how you feel, you know, Oh, I feel so bad and I say, Hey, man, you know, you can do this. You know, here's what's going to happen to you, you know? You know, you might be making some chump change on the street, you know, selling drugs at the corner. For some, dude, you're making less than what you would make in a McDonald's. You know, do you ever think about that?

Dwayne Perkins: [00:03:39] Absolutely. You know, I'm from Brooklyn, and I think in the beginning of the crack epidemic, you know, it was always dangerous, right?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:03:47] Right.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:03:48] But you could kind of make money. I never saw drugs, but at a certain point, like the hierarchy was defined and guys were just selling for other guys.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:03:55] Dwayne, that's it. You know, the kids get a lured by quick money, right?

Dwayne Perkins: [00:04:00] Right.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:04:00] You know, and you can you can have $50 dollars cash in your pocket in one day. But you know that career that little, you know, job aspiration is short lived, you know? So are we going to be on stand on that corner for a good year or so? And then they use you up and then they got somebody else and they don't realize that, you know, they don't they don't look at the bigger picture. But that's one of the problems we have with kids, too, is that they don't look at the future and and what we don't realize about kids is that their brain isn't wired to look at the future. They don't have that literal cognitive ability to do that yet. So we're all trained as adults to go. Think of the future. Think of the future. You're not going to get into Harvard if you don't do this, you know, and kids are going, huh? Yeah, I'm just worried about next weekend. I'm not worried about getting into Harvard.

Jennifer Field: [00:04:47] Why do you think you became so good at what you do is particularly working with youth, but I think you kind of touched on that. So what I really want to ask is, why do you think you're so good at your job? Because I actually play a psychologist on this web series for the last since last year and my life super objective and mo, being the psychologist in the show is that I just think it's interesting why people go bad. So to say I like to discover that in people, and I always wanted that about people that work in psychiatry and psychology. So what is it about your job that that you find so fascinating?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:05:19] Well, I think you hit one thing on the head, which is to be interested in people, and Koji can relate to this as Koji as a writer as well and, you know, as a writer. One of the key skills you have to have as a writer is observation people, right? And so the same interest that I have in my field, my day job, I call it as a psychologist is the same as I have as a writer is to get behind the character. What is behind that? I'm a very good mimicor of people. And where does that come from? Because you observe so like you Jen your acting career and then the podcast, if you work on your mimicking skills, you know, just try to empathize and mimic that character. How would that character be? You'll get really good as a psychologist. Now, back to the one aspect of the question that you asked is Why do I think I'm so good? Is because two things one is that I come from an I mean, not a borscht belt comedian. Poor, but my family was poor. I grew up on the streets of Chicago myself, so I know these people, you know, these are the guys that were beating me up and hassling me at the corner and taking my football gear and throwing it in trees and taking my books and running away with my books. And I never had a I never had a bicycle because everybody stole bikes, you know, in my neighbor. But long story short, I grew up with these guys. So I know these guys, the guys I hung around with, the guys I I had to deal with every day. And so I think that's one aspect. And the other aspect is that I'm real. I don't play around with people. I call it like it is. And, you know, I've studied this. We have a lot of science in this field. And that's the other thing people don't realize we're just not like, Oh, gee, shucks, you know, I think this is maybe, you know, we know what we're doing in this field now after doing it for 100 years. You know, we know a couple of things and I study the field thoroughly as well. That's why Cambridge gave me that award is that I'm a researcher as well.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:07:17] What is the number one misconception people have of children who are going through these troubles?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:07:22] They assume that they know how to and are expected to act like an adult like you. And I would ask. 

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:07:28] The kids,

Dr. John Mayer: [00:07:29] Yeah, the kids, you know, adult. The adult world assumes that kids have all the skills that they need just because they might be six foot four. And wear the latest fashions and have a Gucci chain around their neck that they think that, well, they must be with it and know how to become an adult. And they don't. So that's a misconception. You know, they're not finished, people. That's the other thing that made me successful is I never considered these kids to be my equal. 

Dwayne Perkins: [00:07:54] Right Right. And you know, what's interesting about that is that someone like you who's trying to help the situation realizes they're not full fledged adults, but sadly, manipulators realize that too.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:08:05] Yeah,

Dwayne Perkins: [00:08:05] It's weird to be on both sides of that spectrum where both of you know these vulnerable people, except one is trying to help ones trying to not help all, you know, exploit as it were.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:08:15] And Dwayne, that takes a lot of forms, you know, in terms of studying people. And it kind of gets back to what Jennifer was saying as well and really Segways into our topic today because as I was watching some of the material about the the Ramseys, you know, a lot of these commentators were making assumptions about how they should have acted when their child was killed.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:08:36] Right?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:08:37] You know, and it kind of pissed me off that, you know, these commentators were like, Well, look, look, look. They don't look so, so devastated. Well, how would you act? Is there any stereotypical way in which you're supposed to act when your child got brutally murdered? You know, but we'll get into that when we get into the topic. But but it gets back to your point is that one of the things that people don't get is that you really have to get inside the head of victims. You have to get inside the head of the family of victims and how would they react? And there's no one single way to act.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:09:13] Before we begin, we want to note that since our subject this month involves real people, some of whom are still alive, we will take it on with a bit more seriousness than some of our previous episodes. We hope you understand

Jennifer Field: [00:09:24] One of the things we all watched to give us some background on the subject was the 20 20 documentary The List Who Killed JonBenet? So we'll put a link in the show notes.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:09:34] Here are the facts, guys.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:09:35] Jonbenet Patricia Ramsey was born on August 6th, 1990 in Atlanta, Georgia. Her father, John, was a multimillionaire businessman. And Patricia or Patty her mom was a miss. West Virginia beauty queen JonBenet had one sibling, Burke, who was three years older, according to reports. They lived a very comfortable and happy life in Boulder, Colorado.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:09:54] They had a 4000 square foot house that was huge in L.A. that's like $10 million.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:10:01] Now you've probably seen the disturbing pictures of her dressed up for the child beauty pageant, which is perhaps one of the reasons this case got national attention.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:10:08] Super curious, John, what do you think about those kinds of beauty pageants for girls?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:10:14] Didn't we coin a term earlier? Creepy,

Dwayne Perkins: [00:10:17] Right? Right?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:10:20] You know, I think what's creepy creepiest about this is the contrast. When you looked at that 20 20 video, you know, and you see her at Christmastime, opening gifts is a normal little girl. And then the stark difference between her as this beauty queen to me was shocking and weird,

Dwayne Perkins: [00:10:38] Right?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:10:39] I haven't really been exposed a lot to those little kids that do that. And so I probably saw at some point years ago some brief video of that whole thing, but it was shocking to me to see that the difference.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:10:53] Jennifer, you never did those beauty contests, did you as a little girl?

Jennifer Field: [00:10:56] No, no, I didn't. And I'm glad I did it. But I will say the only other thing that's comparable to that is child actors. I always thought child acting is a weird thing. I think. Julianne Moore at one point had said she thought children shouldn't be allowed. Anyone under 18 shouldn't be allowed to be actors, but I find that the beauty pageant thing for children is even on another level. Besides being a child actor because it's with child acting, it's an art. I think it's different. It's a profession. They're working professionals, whereas we're like the beauty pageant thing. I feel like it has a little of that. But worse,

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:11:27] I was telling you guys earlier that I watch toddler and tiaras because it's like a car accident. But the one time that I liked the show was when it was this little boy. I think he was probably like eight or nine years old, and he was competing in this competition to be the prince or whatever. And he was super excited because he got to wear nice clothes and he got to be fabulous. And it was really awesome to see because he was so excited and it didn't involve him wearing swimwear or trying to look like an adult male or try to look sexy, so I thought that was the only time I thought, this is really awesome. And the father, who was a trucker looking guy, was really supportive of his son, who was clearly already very gay. And I loved that his father was supportive and that he wanted to be there. He was having so much fun, whereas when I watched the little girls, a lot of times were stressed. They don't look like they're having fun, they're being objectified. So that's when it's usually not good.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:12:14] I will interject Koji to look at those pictures of JonBenet. She's certainly looked like she enjoyed it. And again, as we were talking about getting to know each other here today, look at it through the child's eyes and like it or leave it. This young lady was brought up kind of with traditional male female stereotypes. And so she loved the dress up part of it, and she looked like she really liked, you know, putting on the fancy clothes and the makeup, and she was all into it. She certainly didn't look like she was forced into it, you know, and we don't know that background, you know who came up with this idea,

Dwayne Perkins: [00:12:50] Right?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:12:51] The beauty contest. That's a whole other question that nobody ever asked these people. But look in, look at it through how maybe she felt about it. You know, it's dress up. It's Barbie. She gets the Play Act and looks like Jennifer was saying with these kids. And I think that's the sadness of it, is that these kids are kind of seduced into doing some things that we're looking at going, well, this is kind of creepy, but they're like prancing around and having a great time.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:13:19] It feels like it's the public nature of it, because if you give a boy, if we're going to be traditional, if you give a boy like Legos or some kind of construction set, it's like, OK, right? If you give a girl a doll, it's OK. It's the public sort of display that kind of puts it in another another strata. But even if you have young males doing go karts, no one thinks anything of it,

Dr. John Mayer: [00:13:41] Right

Dwayne Perkins: [00:13:41] It's something about most parents again. You can't like judge people because they don't do what you would do. But most parents want to slow the aging process with their children. You know, they grow up too fast, which you always hear. And then you have a case here where it seems like they were like rushing it a bit. I think that's the thing that really doesn't sit well with people, obviously, that it seems sexualized a bit.

Jennifer Field: [00:14:01] On the morning of December twenty six nineteen ninety six, Patsy Ramsey discovers that JonBenet is missing. She finds a two and a half page ransom note at the bottom of the stairs, asking for one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars. And stating that they would be in contact the following day between eight and 10 a.m., So the following day comes and goes and there is no call from the kidnappers. The detective on the scene, Linda Arndt, claims that the parents didn't seem to notice or care. The detective encourages the family to see if they can find any signs that things are out of place in the house.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:14:35] Jennifer just said two things, which really I took umbrage at when I was watching the twenty twenty one of the reporters and I didn't memorize the name goes, You know, no killers. Kidnappers notes are two and a half pages long. Well, listen, lady, is there any rules to kidnapping a kid? Is her like a book? You're given that these are the rules of kidnapping, so I can't write a two and a half page kidnap note. They have to be only be one page and three sentences. You know, that was a ridiculous statement. The second thing that I think I took umbrage was is that, you know, everybody talked about their reaction. This is where they started with, Well, gee, you got this this note and look at the look at the reaction to these people. Oh, they don't look like the people that their daughter just got kidnapped or they're missing. Well, again, people do. People give parents a manual? Is that how they're supposed to act when their child is missing or kidnapped? So started a cycle of, I think, the media already kind of shading the narrative towards the parents being guilty and maybe somehow responsible for this thing. And I took a lot of umbrage at That. 

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:15:44] For the note. I think the point for me was that that's a lot of note writing to write in the house when you're about to kidnap a little girl, I mean, I'm just speaking for myself. If I was going to break into your house and kidnap your child, I know it would be pretty short or I'd write it right. I wouldn't spend two and a half pages writing,

Dr. John Mayer: [00:16:01] Except koji. The whole crime is not a quick crime. That's another thing. I think that even some of the police were missing. Whoever did this spent a lot of time. This whole theory of there was an accidentally the parents hurt the child and then they tried to cover it up and all this kind of stuff. Whatever crime here was committed. This took a lot of time. We had a fractured skull. We had this choking of her with the garatt. You know, this is almost ritualistic.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:16:28] I've never heard that from anybody because they always mention how long the note is. I mean, that's all that anyone ever talks about.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:16:34] But it should be from the perspective of like what you said, Koji, if that's an anomaly that matters, it matters because they maybe wrote it there. And what kind of person would write that letter and did it happen before or after she died? The length itself isn't like Exhibit A. It's sort of like the length of the note with the fact that it was the paper from the house or how or when it happened, those kind of things they still don't like. One hundred percent prove the parents did it. It can kind of make sometimes law enforcement gets lazy with to get one kind of glaring thing and they just run with it, which they should, but they should shouldn't exclude them from running with other things.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:17:11] And Dwayne, don't get us started on the laziness of the Boulder police because even in the 20 20 episode, you know, it almost looked like Andy in Mayberry the way the police were handling this whole, the crime scene was compromised. There were things done that, you know, most police I work with police all around the country and all around the world, and most police would shake their hand and many of the procedures that were done. And then again, it gets back to the the social station of these people. You know, I think there was a lot of things forgiven from normal police procedure because, well, this is, you know, as Koji said, this is people that live in Boulder with a 4000 square foot house. The guy is a multimillionaire, but that's absolutely terrible police work.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:17:56] It is alleged that John heads directly to the basement where he finds his daughter's body. According to John Ramsey, she was lying on a white blanket. The blanket was wrapped around her. Her hands were tied above her head. She had tape over her mouth. I immediately knelt down over her felt Her cheek took the tape off immediately off her mouth. I tried to untie the cord that was around her arms and I couldn't get the knot untied. Jonbenet skull had been fractured. She had been sexually assaulted and had been strangled with a garratt made from one of Patty's paint brushes.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:18:20] Again, I go back to the time taken here. This crime took a lot of time. This is not just smacking somebody on the head and running away.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:18:28] They're taking so much time. What does it say to you in terms of possibly suspects or possibly how comfortable they felt?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:18:33] But people don't understand, and even as portrayed in documentaries and movies and on killers and particularly serial killers, is that they all have a world view. They all have their their modus operandi, their way in which they're going to commit their crimes, which makes sense to them. It doesn't necessarily make sense to us. And I think that's part of the puzzle of this whole crime is that, well, you know, why would they write the note in the house? Why would they not be that long as Dwayne was talking about, you know, they could have had a cheat sheet copy of the note that they're going to write, but they wanted to write The note in the house with house materials, why would they use the broken paintbrush to not only sexually molest her, but also to create the garratte? This might not make sense to us, but to the killer. This is part of their worldview view. This is part of their operation and to solve the crime, and nobody's talked about this, about this case. You need to get in that mindset of why did this make sense to the killer? You know, why did this make sense to this person doing that? So the length of time taken is as part. To me of a whole ritual that I've seen in serial killers that I've had to evaluate and called in on cases where, you know, this is the way that person wanted to do this, this crime. 

Jennifer Field: [00:19:58] So interesting.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:19:59] The suspects, there have been no significant leads in the case, but here are some of the people generally considered suspects by the by the public. Of course, John and Patsy Ramsey. First, it is important to note that both parents were exonerated in 2008 through DNA evidence. The general prevailing theory has always been one of them accidentally. As we talked about, killed JonBenet and then attempted to hide it by making up the kidnapping. Here are some of the facts. Quote unquote, people cite as to why they think the parents did it. Inconsistencies to their story. And the fact that they were not initially interviewed separately by the police, which is outrageous. Even in second grade. You separate and you ask two people separately.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:20:37] Exactly. 

Dwayne Perkins: [00:20:38] The ransom note was written from paper within the house. As we talked about, fibers found on the duct tape were the same found on Patty's clothes. The dollar amount in the ransom note. One hundred and eighteen thousand was the exact amount John received in his holiday bonus that year.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:20:51] I think that's the weirdest one, By the way.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:20:53] Yeah, but if your bonus pay is one hundred and eighteen thousand, you're really caked out.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:20:58] We're all in the wrong profession,

Dwayne Perkins: [00:21:00] Right

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:21:00] But the fact that They knew there's some, I mean, they might know something of this family.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:21:04] Exactly, exactly. The fact that John went straight to the basement and moved the body. Upstairs, we moved the tape and put a blanket over it, essentially destroying or tainting all of the physical evidence. Of course, both parents completely deny any involvement in JonBenet's death.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:21:17] Yeah, I wanted to talk about that bonus, and I know you're intrigued by it. Koji and I have a theory about that. Again, this whole thing, Jennifer is going to like this, this whole thing of empathizing with someone else or in a different era. These are the nineties, and it probably wasn't apparent in the 90s about hacking or getting into people's information through their computers or getting into their bank account. And I have a theory that the killer was probably savvy with electronics or being able to hack in or somehow get into the information systems of the Mr. Ramsey in particular. You know, we wouldn't have thought about it, and the police wouldn't have thought about it in those days because it wasn't a thing in the 90s. Now, now we consider it like it's an everyday thing to get hacked or scammed, etc. But that was a burgeoning industry there.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:22:14] And one thing I'll say about the John going straight down to the basement and messing with the crime scene. I think something that you said, John really stands out to me. You know, when you say, Well, that's not how I would have acted, I think before I had a child, I would have said, Well, that's crazy. I would definitely not do anything right. But now that I have a child and I put myself in that situation, I think the first thing I would do is go to the body, lift him up and take him somewhere to help him. But in my head, I'm like, No, of course not. That's terrible.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:22:38] Oh yeah, that was another stark thing about the reporting that I'm going, Yeah, you don't even have children. And then Patty, the mom, remember what she did when the child came upstairs was laid on the floor. She said I immediately put my body over her and hugged her and put my cheek to her. That's what a mom would do.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:22:56] Right, right.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:22:57] These high and mighty reporters are saying, Well, this is a strange behavior.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:23:01] And also the cops should have cleared the house before that as soon as they came. Right?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:23:06] Well, that was another thing, Dwyane. They brought up in the the 20 20 report is that the cops did clear the house, but that they didn't go into that particular room where they found there's that Andy Mayberry police work is going on. You know,

Jennifer Field: [00:23:21] Doesn't everyone watch like enough horror movies and thriller movies that people's bodies are usually in the frickin basement? Like, that's where the shit goes down. The cops should've known. Burke Ramsey like his parents. Burke was completely exonerated through DNA evidence in two thousand eight. Some investigators believe that Burke may have killed his sister over a fight about a late night pineapple snack pineapple, which was later found in JonBenet's stomach. So he, like his parents, completely denies any involvement in his sister's death.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:23:52] And I just want to say real quick if in nineteen ninety six you make so much money that your bonus is double what most people make in nineteen ninety six, if not triple. I don't think you are short on pineapple.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:24:09] I think that's a great comment.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:24:10] Someone outside The family could be a suspect the police initially did not believe it could have been an intruder. They claim there were no footprints. But the crime scene was never secured, so it is difficult to know to know that for sure. But some investigators, both amateur and professional, believe the police have not looked enough at the possibility it was someone outside the family. So here are some of those people. The town drifter. He was a convicted pedophile living in the area and was found with a picture of JonBenet from a magazine. Dna eventually cleared him. The electrician he allegedly had a property dispute with the Ramseys. However, he too was cleared through DNA.

Jennifer Field: [00:24:45] The schoolteacher, a substitute teacher obsessed with the case, confessed to killing JonBenet, but it was later discovered that he was lying and could not have been involved in the murder. The housekeeper, the Ramseys housekeeper, purportedly needed money, which could be a motive for the ransom. However, it is all circumstantial and no charges have ever been filed against her. There was the town Santa. Allegedly, the town Santa took a special interest in JonBenet. Also, this makes for a good story. Apparently, there is zero evidence of any involvement or wrongdoing. A local reporter, this reporter allegedly was turned in by his partner, who claimed that he was missing on the twenty sixth and came back with dirty clothes. His handwriting could not be eliminated from the person who wrote the ransom note. No charges have ever been filed against him.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:25:33] Here's some kind of wacky theories one is just Gislane Maxwell of Jeffrey Epstein fame, the gatherer of the girls. They said she's in the background of JonBenet's last known photograph. This is completely untrue. It's like those infomercials at 2:00 in the morning. Like if they had something that, like cured every disease, it wouldn't. You would know about it. It wouldn't be an infomercial on 2 in the morning. And also JonBenet never died. That's another theory. She just became Katy Perry. I actually like that one. One person believes her eyebrows are exactly the same. Could this be true?

Jennifer Field: [00:26:06] So funny. I never heard of that until we did the research, by the way. For this case, I was the first I'd heard of the Katy Perry connection. Jonbenet was killed in some satanic ritual gone wrong. Another theory that's one of the wacky ones is a wolf killed her a wolf, and the whole ransom note was a cover up by the parents.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:26:26] This is my favorite one. It was the APAC that says the Asian Pacific American Coalition, which is the APAC, was an active, liberal political group operating out of Colorado University, and the request for one hundred and eighteen thousand written in the ransom could have actually been code for JonBenet's time of death, which aligns well with an actual time of death around 1:18 am. As if this conspiracy isn't already crazy enough, APAC disbanded just weeks after the young starlets murder, by the way, we took that exactly from rancor, so that's not our writing, just to be clear. Another one and my favorite is aliens. The aliens were jealous of JonBenet Ramsey's beauty, of course, and if you need proof in the ransom note, the writer wrote foreign fraction, which of course, means aliens from outer space. And another one is, of course, is how everything's tied to 9/11. The people behind 911, it was them that did it, and I would try to explain to you guys, but it's just way too complicated and we would need another 20 minutes to do so.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:27:17] When we come back, we'll put our minds together and figure out what really maybe happened.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:27:24] We can use your help. We aren't on a big network and we don't have big backers, we aren't getting paid. Wait, we're not getting paid. That's why we need your help. Please, please, please consider supporting us on Patreon. Any amount helps us pay for the show. We're planning on having exclusive content for our supporters, so stay tuned.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:27:42] Now that we've discussed the facts, let's Let's workshop our ideas. 

Dr. John Mayer: [00:27:45] On the heels of the wacky theories, I have my own wacky theory.

Jennifer Field: [00:27:49] Let's hear it.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:27:49] All right. Now you got to put your mind into the 20 20 broadcast. Anybody think about the Erie Association of that? Amy Robush, that reporter, the blonde reporter and how eerily she looks like JonBenet? And how interested she was in the facts. She didn't have that kind of manufactured reporter speak to her, and I got a feeling that JonBenet didn't die. And she is Aimee robust. She's about the right age. She's in her 30s, and I think she's a reporter for 20 20.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:28:28] The case is solved the case is solved,

Dr. John Mayer: [00:28:31] Boom. Boom Mic drop

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:28:38] My theory. So the Ramsey family was very aware, even though they didn't necessarily handle the press very well, their very press savvy. I think they were thinking iconic. They wanted to make their family really famous, but they couldn't get into Hollywood. They couldn't write a book, they couldn't do those kinds of things. So what they decided to do as a family was to create the ultimate true crime crime so that everything was faked. This whole thing was faked, and they just put enough evidence here and there just to make them think that it's the family, but so that the whole conversation is always on this case forever, because now everyone will always be talking about it.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:29:10] And JonBenet is Amy Robach.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:29:12] Right, right.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:29:13] Or Katy Perry

Jennifer Field: [00:29:14] JonBenet is alive somewhere.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:29:15] So you mean that you mean the death is Fake, too?

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:29:17] Everything was fake. They just got another body that looked like JonBenet.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:29:20] Interesting. Interesting. This one is tough. The father kind of makes sense, but the fact that it was so mishandled in terms of how they handled the first few days of the investigation, my theory would have to be it's someone in law enforcement and you don't want to say that right, because, you know, to protect and to serve and most law enforcement people do that. But I think even the person who told them, I think it was the Linda person, Linda, who kind of seems like she she seems to think and intimate that she thinks is the father, but she's the one who told them to search the house again. And so it's kind of like that scene in The Godfather when he says, like whoever comes to you and tells you to set up the meeting is the traitor, right? So whosever idea did was to search the basement is the person or they know what happened. And so the fact that she told him, I think if I heard it correctly on the twenty twenty thing, like I think first time investigator person, she told him to search the basement so it's either her or her superiors because one, why do you put her on a case? It's like Ted Lasso, right? When you hire Ted Lasso, who's a football American football coach, the coach your soccer team, then you're sabotaging the soccer team, right? That's what you hope will happen. So I think it's law enforcement. I'm not sure who. I don't know if it's that Lady Linda, because it seems like a male kind of crime. And I'm assuming that DNA was male DNA. But I would say either law enforcement or someone they, for whatever reason, had to cover it up for. And then that's by making it look like the parents then like it only takes one person in law enforcement to to taint that crime scene, to make it look like the parents. But then also you simultaneously can't prove it's the parents, and then you also force everyone else to stop looking for whoever it was. So I'm not saying it's like the whole Boulder police force, but it could just be one person in the force.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:31:08] But Dwayne, you kind of lead into my second wacky theory, and that is it's a community event.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:31:16] Oh, that's so scary, though. Don't say that. That's terrifying.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:31:20] The whole community, almost like a little stepford kind of situation where this is boulder. It's that community where all these 4000 square foot houses and little girl disrupted that nice harmony they had. She can't, you know, stand out so much. And so and the ineptness of the police investigation and a lot of the things that were missed community, the whole community came after this kid.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:31:45] What's scary about that is the fact that all their friends came over and like, no one thought, you guys can't be here. They touched everything. It does seem like they were all in on it. But then it, then it becomes why right? And then it's also my question would be are the parents on it?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:31:59] Shades of Rosemary's Baby.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:32:02] I'm thinking some evil entity made the community do this, and they had to do it to get this like evil spirit lifted or whatever.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:32:10] Koji take notes? We could have a screenplay of out this one,

Jennifer Field: [00:32:12] My theory, there was a sort of I hate to say it. It's so hard to say like a sex club, so like a community sex ring, and that the parents were in on it because they were in charge of this pedophile sex ring with their daughter. It was their little club and something went wrong that night, and molestation or whatever one of those suspects could have been the the homeless person could have been Santa Claus could have been. Labor could have been made one of them accidentally killed her and then the parents and the brother, the parents mainly covered it up.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:32:47] One minor note that was made in the 20 20 broadcast was that and I might have these stats wrong, but didn't they say that something like 20 or 50 pedophiles lived in that area?

Dwayne Perkins: [00:33:00] They did say that. Yeah,

Dr. John Mayer: [00:33:01] Yeah, it was. And I think it was 50. You know, that's a hell of a lot of pedophiles in a small community like that, you know, so I think you're on to something.

Jennifer Field: [00:33:11] Here's the thing is, I don't know who it was that actually killed her, but that's why there was somebody else's DNA on her on her because it was somebody else that, excuse me, jizzed koji, am I going in bad territory here? Somebody did something at some point earlier that day, or I don't know, maybe everybody was there.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:33:28] Right, right, right. And that's the thing is the DNA, the killer's DNA or someone else's DNA.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:33:33] Isn't this is what QAnon is all about. But there's a pedophile sex ring.

Jennifer Field: [00:33:36] Oh, yeah.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:33:37] I mean, it's not that far apart from those people, but John, love to hear your thoughts.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:33:40] Nobody's talked about this detective, Lou Smit, which I thought he was the best character in this whole story. I think this guy was on to something. He was the fellow who crawled through the the window. And again, the Boulder police said, Well, we didn't look at the window because, you know, it didn't seem like it would provide any access. And this older fella just kind of crawls in through it, like it, like it's nothing. I think Lou Smit was on to something and in the direction of agreeing with him that it was an outsider. Jen, getting back to your theory just to give you a statistic. It's very rare, very rare. I mean, the statistics are like one half of one percent that a biological parent will do such a heinous sex act and incestuous sex act with their own child. Typically, when we see child sexual abuse, it's it's a step parent or an uncle or relative when it's a relative, let alone most child sexual abuse is done by somebody who's not biologically connected. But anyway, I think it's an intruder. I think an intruder came in and again, given some of the tidbits I've been saying through the program, I think this person has a worldview that makes a lot of sense of a ritualistic killing. I agree with this. Lou Smit at one point saying that not only is the killer out there, but probably there's going to be other crimes in this direction. Statistics or facts about my theory is that there's probably at any given time three to five hundred serial killers running around the United States that we don't even know about. And so I think we have a serial killer that is has done this has his own ritualistic way of doing this and how many nobody's looked at other crimes that have have similar connections and even one or two ways. So I think it's an intruder.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:35:27] Wow.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:35:28] It's crazy about that is it seems like people who do that, they don't stop and sometimes they also increase in frequency.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:35:35] And Dwayne, here's another thing that we talked about movies and portrayals of these people and many times to make it dramatic, the movie or documentary says. And here's an indication of they wanted to be caught. That's false. They don't want to be caught. They want to go merrily on their way and and keep doing this ad infinitum. So this was carefully done not to catch them implicate the parents. This person fits the profile of a serial killer that in their own world, they're pretty intelligent. You know, and what they're doing, they haven't thought out. And the hacking I mentioned before, this person wanted everything to point at anything but their involvement with the case.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:36:21] All right. Well, we're at the point in the show where we have to choose the unofficial official story. So let's let's see which one we wanted to pick. I will say I love the one that in town does it. It feels very like village to me, and it's kind of the most. It's the one where they all kind of came together and kind of almost shunned. That's the one I like the best. But Dwayne, which one did you like the best?

Dwayne Perkins: [00:36:39] I like that one, too, only because it kind of encapsulates the others in a way. And I also think that in terms of just sort of like someone who doesn't know any of these people and if I'm to just let it go. I mean, I can let it go. No problem. But that's the one that makes me helps me let it go the most because so many things were done wrong. Let's just say it was the whole town and keep moving. You know what I mean?

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:37:01] Oh, I will say that two smart people. Also, John and the detective both said that it was probably an intruder, so it's probably most likely. I think it's probably most likely the intruder. But with that being said, I think it's more fun to say it's the whole community. But Jennifer, what were you thinking?

Jennifer Field: [00:37:13] I like the community one because I feel like I've never even thought of that. Like, yeah, like a village scenario where they all came down on it. For whatever reason, I don't know why they. Like you said, where was she taking their fame? Is that what you touched on, John,

Dr. John Mayer: [00:37:28] That she was calling too much attention to the community? You know, if you had a scenario where the community was involved in some kind of nefarious activity, like a sex club, like you said or or demonic? Was there anything you wouldn't want notoriety and this girl was getting tremendous notoriety? We got to get rid of her putting too much of a spotlight on this little wonderful thing. We got going here.

Jennifer Field: [00:37:52] I think that's my fav because it's so unique and it would make a really crazy like if we made an actual episode of this episode. Usually video wise, that would be really crazy to me.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:38:03] And John, what are you thinking?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:38:04] I like this community ideas as well. I'm already I'm already starting to write the screenplay on this. This is Rosemary's Baby redo,

Jennifer Field: [00:38:16] Right

Dwayne Perkins: [00:38:17] It works metaphorically, too right? Because metaphorically, it is the whole community. This doesn't happen in like places where there's guys hanging outside bebop and you know what I mean?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:38:27] Right

Dwayne Perkins: [00:38:27] Like so by even having this seclusion, you create the even the situation that allows an outsider to come in.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:38:34] Dwayne I think that's brilliant, you know, and think about it, you right? And metaphorically, we contribute to the fact that we're we're clapping for this little girl prancing around and creating this whole thing that was good.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:38:48] So who killed her? They did. And that is the unofficial official story. We'll take another break, and when we return will each give you guys some important advice. Ok, this month we're going to do something that Koji does in every one of his screenwriting classes. Koji care to explain.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:39:05] Ok, so each of my classes, I feel the need to give my students advice on how not to be a victim of a crime. But sometimes that always turns into how to get away with a crime, specifically murder.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:39:15] And in honor of that and our subject, let's share our best. How to stay safe advice or how to get away with murder advice.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:39:23] My first and most important advice is always, it's OK to be weird and make people feel uncomfortable. So especially for women, if you're ever in a situation where you feel uncomfortable, it's OK to be rude. But it's OK to make a scene if you feel like you're in danger. I think too many times we're taught as as humans in this society that we have to go along, that we don't want to make a scene. But a lot of times that feeling inside of you is there for a reason. It's there to prevent you from being a victim that we put ourselves too many times in situations to try to get along instead of being safe. And I think that that's the number one thing I always tell young women in my class is that if you ever feel uncomfortable, it's OK to make a scene. And if it becomes uncomfortable later, that's fine. At least you're alive as opposed to the opposite, which is your dead. You should have made a scene earlier so you never go into somebody's car, never go to somebody's apartment, never walk on the street by yourself. If you feel uncomfortable, all those things are facts and that you should always be aware. And the most important thing is your safety and not someone's feelings.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:40:15] Great advice. 

Dwayne Perkins: [00:40:16] That is great advice. Absolutely.

Jennifer Field: [00:40:18] My advice is if you're in a sticky situation or you think you're going to get murdered or you're about to be kidnapped is seduction. I used to oddly fantasize that if an intruder ever came into my house, I would give him a blow job to blow them, to seduce them or something to, like, throw them off. That was always my thing is, if I'm ever in a weird situation, whether it's a girl or a guy, I'm going to try to like, manipulate them and try to. I don't know if there's there's I think there's a theory for that, right, when you start to make friends and trust the kidnapper.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:40:46] The Stockholm Theory. 

Jennifer Field: [00:40:48] Stockholm theory Yeah.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:40:49] So that I know of cases, that it works. But I also know in case I've also heard of cases where people get get more angry about it, right, John? Is that sometimes happen?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:40:56] Yeah. Jen, I don't want to step on your toes. I was just not going to say anything at all. But yeah, not good advice.

Jennifer Field: [00:41:05] It's not good advice.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:41:06] Darn, you're not a pro at this. So don't try to out manipulate or out trick an intruder or somebody who's violent. You got to understand this is their whole life. They're better at it than we are. So you're not, you're never going to win them over. So I would advise them and no blowjobs,

Dwayne Perkins: [00:41:26] Right Right. Although if it came to that, then you could just bite down. Yeah,

Dr. John Mayer: [00:41:30] Yeah.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:41:31] For me, I think it's sort of like an advice suite, if you will, along the lines of what Koji said. One always expect and think the worst, you know, thinking the worst is not a crime. It's not something that people should get upset about, especially if you don't say it, but think the worst. And if you're from an inner city, that's how you arrange think the worst and that'll inform everything else. You don't have to say, I think you are a murderer, but you think it and you move accordingly. I would say keep your phone fully charged as much as you can and have the best phone service you can. And third, tell people where you're going because I think sometimes you might be doing something you're not super proud of or whatever or going someplace, but you have to have those two or three people you tell. Now that might just help them recover you as opposed to save you. But when you go missing or something like that to that effect, the quicker someone can positively say they went here, they went there, the quicker people can get on that on your trail.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:42:23] And John, why don't you tell us yours?

Dr. John Mayer: [00:42:25] Two things one, very quickly. I totally agree with Dwayne and I call it City Sense, right? You have to have some city sense to you where, you know, looking around, you do have a swivel head and you're looking around that thing. You don't walk down Fifth Avenue in New York, with your purse wide open, which I saw one one time a woman walking down with a purse wide open and somebody just out of the blue went up there, put his hand in her purse and ran away. So city sense is important now. This is a real practical tip, though I want to say about being safe, and it's very important which young people don't do. Ask a veteran of the scene. What are some of the things that I need to know? Like, for example, don't leave your drink unattended. Don't leave your purse on a bar stool. What kind of guys to look out for, or what kind of girls to look out for? Ask, ask somebody who's been around and been at the scene. You know, I call it asking a veteran, You know, is that give me some tips. What should I do when I go out and they'll give you some very practical advice which listen to and take to heart?

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:43:27] I notice that no one said how to get away with murder, so I'll give my number one how to get away with murder advice. Just we see both sides. My number one piece of advice is murder in different counties with different jurisdictions as much as possible, because if you stay in one place, the flags will go up quicker. The more you move around, I mean, that's why the Golden State Killer got away with it for so long was he who was murdering a different area. And now people talk a little bit more than before. But still, you know, different jurisdictions and bureaucracies make it a little bit more difficult to get caught.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:43:55] Thank you, John, for coming on with us. Please tell us where people can follow you.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:43:58] Well, a couple of things I have, like everybody else in the universe, I have a website. It's Dr. John Mayer dot com. I also have my own podcast called Anxieties a Bitch, chock full of techniques and tips on how to deal with stress and anxiety and getting good sleep.

Jennifer Field: [00:44:13] Thank you so much again, John, for coming on and thank you all. Unofficial official story, listeners. There are a million podcasts out there, so we are so honored you chose an solicitor.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:44:22] Please check out our website unofficial official story dot com for our show notes or to hear our past episodes

Dwayne Perkins: [00:44:28] And be sure to come back next month when we answer to the question What happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 370?

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:44:33] It's the same place, JonBenet Ramsey is.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:44:35] It's the same community.

Koji Steven Sakai: [00:44:38] Right, exactly. All right, guys. Thank you. Bye.

Dr. John Mayer: [00:44:43] Thank you, everyone. It was a great time.

Jennifer Field: [00:44:45] Thank you.

Dwayne Perkins: [00:44:45] Thank you, guys.